Question about Fukushima in 2016

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:20 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:25 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
Posts: 2457
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:07 pm

The real worry you should have about a power plant. /
It was only a matter of time, but i still think evil do not know what they are up against.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:37 am


ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:23 pm

The true bottom line here for the slag is that while it operates under a different regime than a core construct, it is still beholden to fuel mass density / geometry. The more it reacts with surrounding materials, be they structural or containment, the more it loses in regard to the mass / geometry argument. It will reach a point where it is no longer considered to be in a power range operating mode, and that has already happened. It does not take long for it to lose the mass/geometry argument. I would say it is done more or less when the slag finds its first real concrete boundary. It is highly likely at this point to accumulate sufficient contaminants and loss of geometry to dictate loss of self sustainability reaction rates, and by definition become 'shut down' where reactions are dominated by natural decay verses burn up.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby CharlesKramer » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:01 am

================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer

hanelyp
Posts: 2255
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby hanelyp » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:58 am

In a well designed fission reactor facility the core catcher basin is designed to spread out a molten core, the better to both send the fuel sub-critical by geometry, and for passive cooling. Both are facilitated by more surface area. Not every facility necessarily has such a design, or even a basin to catch the corium in a total melt down. Absent a functional catch basin the worst realistic case scenario would be molten material reaching the water table and producing a steam explosion.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:20 pm

In the case of the Fulushima design, they have three/technically four layers of baskets. The final is the subfoundation which is meters thick (on purpose).

Even if a slag made it to dirt, the likelihood of it staying as a singular mass goes significantly down due to the uneven densities it would encounter. As it tried to work its way down it would probably start to lose bits here and there as it flowed around rocks and what not. I am unaware of any testing done on various soil/underlayment compositions. It is still fun to imagine a smoking glowing hole dropping down into the dark depths of the earth's crust... :)
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
Posts: 2457
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby paperburn1 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:10 pm

I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby CharlesKramer » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:47 am

Corium slag must make a complicated chemical soup. It starts with fuel and cladding at thousands of degrees... then add steel containment... then cement. In Fukushima add some salt (ocean) water. In Chernobyl add sand. And then the decay chain of the fuel. Then all that mess transmuting from neutrons.

I doubt if anyone has modeled the result (even of a theoretical homogeneous mixture). Guess we'll know in a few hundred (or thousand years) what Fuku-shimium looks like.
Last edited by CharlesKramer on Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:52 pm

The studies done on core slags have shown that mass and geometry are the drivers. There have been a number for contained in the primary containment, and leakers. These have been both mods/sims and live tests with real cores. To my knowledge, a study has never been done looking at an escape from containment to the environment. I believe the assessment is that this is so unlikely, that it does not warrant the expense.
None of the five known accidents have seen slag escape beyond containment to the environment. Contaminated cooling water, gases, and in the case of Japan and Russia, core fragments (Japan from the cooling pools, Russia from the core explosion), but not slag burn through.

Here is a good summary done in 2000 by LANL. Some of our (U.S.) fun testing was done at NRTS. You should check those out for sure. Technically you could argue there were more than "five" accidents, but I don't count the ones that were started on purpose, no matter how "fun" they got. :)

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
Posts: 2457
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby paperburn1 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:03 pm

How would the core flow in real life? the link I posted earlier has many photos of the Corium.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:19 pm

It is gravity driven. Paths are determined by least resistance. When encountering something it will go around if it can, and/or eat it if possible.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:46 am


krenshala
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:20 pm
Location: Austin, TX, NorAm, Sol III
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby krenshala » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:34 pm

Considering the parks at ground zero in both Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I wouldn't be that surprised if they manage to do so.


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests