Google Polywell Fusion Counter

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

KitemanSA
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by KitemanSA »

Art Carlson wrote:What does "could" mean? That there is some conceivable universe where it would turn out to be so? Then you'd have to say tokamaks could be the energy source of the future. To say that the polywell could be a dud doesn't take much imagination at all.
Again, I may be missing something, but everything I have seen suggests Polywell should work, and if it does, would get there bf&c. Therefore could get there bf&c.
Not quite so sure it will work with p11Bm, but D-D seems likely. But of course the devil is in the scaling. Will it or won't it? Its cheap enough to find out once and for all. I think they should. And if "they" are not willing, I think WE the PEOPLE should. Not-for-profit anyone?

JohnP
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:29 am
Location: Chicago

Post by JohnP »

At this stage the resources needed are way beyond what grassroots can do, esp given the lousy economy. EMC2 had a very popular (for a physics talk) google video going for it, and the nonprofit New Mexico development fund. But I'd be surprised if they raised more than a few thousand dollars.

The Navy's stewardship has so far been decent, and (looks to me) like they're showing no signs of stopping it. While it would be great to hear news that the ONR is funding Polywell in the 100's of millions, we'll just have to wait till they're satisfied this thing is worth the capital risk.

Of course, it'd be cool if a white knight stepped in (Gates, Pickens, etc), but don't hold your breath.

StevePoling
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: grand rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by StevePoling »

Art Carlson wrote:I don't know where the idea came from that tokamaks haven't been successful.
It depends upon your definition of success. When I was in High School in the early 1970s, I read that we'd have to wait 20 years for tokamak-based nuclear fusion power plants. That was 36 years ago and I'm reading nothing substantially different, particularly the 20 year wait.

This isn't so much a "political" observation as a practical one. It isn't as if there's no demand for energy. If anyone can fulfill the promise of cheap and plentiful fusion energy, there's a ton of money to be made. The paucity of private funding for tokamaks indicates that serious adults have performed their due diligence and found them wanting. This line of reasoning applies as well to IEC and other unconventional approaches.

Torulf2
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: Swedem

Post by Torulf2 »


Josh Cryer
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:19 am

Post by Josh Cryer »

Get well soon Art. (But don't let that stop you from posting!) :)

KitemanSA
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

JohnP wrote:At this stage the resources needed are way beyond what grassroots can do, esp given the lousy economy.
I guess that all depends on where you dig for the roots.

Tom Ligon
Posts: 1871
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:23 am
Location: Northern Virginia
Contact:

Post by Tom Ligon »

Yes, get well soon, Art.

We have a mutual antagonist, leokor. He showed up over at the Analog forum and is trying to sell us on an electric universe. We're considering convincing him black holes are real by dropping him down one. I noticed Lerner's been banned from the Plasma Cosmology Wikipedia page.

Small world, ain't it?

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Art says:
Others think it is worth one more shot to know for sure.
That is how I feel about Polywell.

And get well soon. Unless of course you like hanging out here. In that case put it off a bit.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Art Carlson
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by Art Carlson »

KitemanSA wrote:Again, I may be missing something, but everything I have seen suggests Polywell should work, and if it does, would get there bf&c.
I guess you haven't been reading my posts. I've spent a good deal of effort over the last six months explaining why, given everything I know about plasma physics, the polywell shouldn't work.

Maybe it'll work anyway, given the imperfect state of knowledge of plasma physics generally and me in particular, but I'd say the chance of being able to build a polywell in the next 50 years that delivers net electricity and costs less than 20 billion dollars is way less than the chance for a tokamak under the same conditions. Now some of you might say the situation reverses if we change that to 20 years and 1 billion dollars, since the tokamak is then out of the race. It also vastly increases the size of the miracle you need to get the polywell to work, and a race with no contenders is a bore to watch.

Note, I don't rightly know whether or not it is a good bet to build one more polywell, spending the money to do it right this time, just to be sure we really understand the major physics issues. It would help a lot to get a look at Rick Nebel's final report. Even if we knew for sure that the polywell could never produce net fusion power, cusp confinement also has applications in technological plasmas and space plasmas.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

There is a company that claims it can build a 5 MW 100KV power supply for $.10 a W if the supply is in series production. Let us double that for a one of. Then let us go for 6 MRI magnets for $1 million. Suitably modified for $.5 million. Vacuum chamber and coil supports etc. $2 million. Instrumentation $1 million. Misc $1 million. Salaries for a year + overhead $1 million.

So:

Power $1 million
SCs $1.5 milion
Chamber $2 million
Instruments $1 million
Misc $1 million
Salaries $1 million

Eight million for a continuous operation. (360 - 10 second bursts) burning D-D.

BTW - Coil supplies will be batteries powered by a buck converter. Or considering that 100 Amps at 2 volts ought to be enough coil power - an ordinary DC supply with a 150KV rated isolation transformer.

The 1 hour of operation is a neutron damage limit and should represent only 50% of coil life and assumes about 1E14 neutrons / sq cm at the coil faces.

Now this device would be far from ideal. The intercept area of the coils might be as much as 40%. But we are not trying for a power generator. Just lab results.

Also the neutron damage assumes thermal neutrons. High MeV neutrons should give longer life. I probably should add in $1 or $2 million for a well shielded operating space.

Figure $10 million for a continuously operating device to see if doing the engineering for a power device is worth it. pB11 tests could also be run on such a device if D-D results are favorable.

That doesn't seem excessive.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by KitemanSA »

Art Carlson wrote: I guess you haven't been reading my posts. I've spent a good deal of effort over the last six months explaining why, given everything I know about plasma physics, the polywell shouldn't work.
....
....Even if we knew for sure that the polywell could never produce net fusion power, cusp confinement also has applications in technological plasmas and space plasmas.
Now you see, this is one of the reasons I have been having trouble following you. It SEEMS you are saying this won't work because cusp confinement doesn't work well. But as far as I can tell (not too far but tenatiously :wink: ) the cusps aren't being asked to confine anything.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but my understanding has the wiffle-ball acting as a quasi-spherical mirror with holes in it and the holes let electrons fountain out wherein they are returned by the positive bias charge on the magrid. I guess the holes are called cusps. I also see that Dr. B used a term "funny cusp" to describe what a modeler termed a singularity. Whatever you call it, it makes a hole. But once a) the mirror is made less quasi and more spherical, and b) the cross brace (aka stub) is moved away from the "funny cusp", you get almost perfect electrostatic confinement with no loss path.

What about this shouldn't work?

Art Carlson
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Post by Art Carlson »

Oooh! Can I play, too?

Don't know how accurate your component estimates are (I'd rather hear Rick Nebel's figures.), but we can take them as a jumping off point.

First let me check the power figure. I suppose we are talking about magnets with maybe 1 m diameter and 0.5 m bore. That should translate to R_plasma ~ 0.5 m. I would expect losses from 12 line cusps, each somewhat less than a quarter circumference long, and an equivalent loss from the point cusps. That makes an effective length of about 2*12*(2pi*R/4), call it 15 m. Let's guess B = 1 T, so rho_e at 100 keV is around 1 mm. Multiply that times 8 (the fourth root of the deuteron/electron mass ratio) for the hybrid gyroradius, assuming standard theory holds. Makes 8 mm cusp width.

Ouch. That's a gaping wound. Good thing we're only building an experiment, not a power reactor. What's the power loss through the cusp, again assuming standard theory (or worst case, depending on your point of view)? An area of 0,1 m^2. An energy density of (1 T)^2/(2mu_0) ~ 4e5 J/m^3. A sound speed of about 2e6 m/s. Adds up to 100 GW. We're gonna need a bigger boat!

Did I make a big mistake somewhere? Possible. (Excuse: I'm sick, remember?) If not, then you need 10,000 of your power supplies (You could build ITER for that money!), to be sure you can definitively test the theory.

Or you can just spend 10 million in the hope that the thing will work 10,000 times better than the theory says.

Actually, I had all kinds of clever things to say about your cost estimate, but considering the above result, it seems kind of pointless.

-----

Since I never know when to shut up, let me ask how we could make those numbers look better.
  • Reduce R. Maybe, but P only scales with R in this model, and if you make the thing too small you start getting confounding effects like atomic physics. At most one order of magnitude, if you are willing to reduce the plasma to R = 5 cm.
  • Reduce the voltages. There is again a linear dependence, partly through the cusp width and partly through the sound speed. Reducing the energy makes the atomic physics effects worse, and, of course, you lose any chance of using fusion reactions as a diagnostic. Still to save the program, we could reduce the voltage from 100 kV to, say, 1 kV, giving us two orders of magnitude.
  • Reduce the magnetic field. Yet again a linear dependence, the width of the cusp partially offsetting the energy density. We've already got an 8 mm cusp width and a 5 cm plasma radius. I don't think we want to go any farther here. More generally we can choose a minimum value for R/rho and then trade off field for volume without affecting the power requirement.
  • Go to argon. This is the only other dependence I can find. Argon is 20 times heavier than deuterium, so the sound speed is 4.5 times less, reducing the flow of particles and energy out the cusps. Nearly an order of magnitude.
Well, looky there! We're back to an experiment that we could build for a double-digit-million sum. Of course, it's tiny and has a puny voltage, and runs on argon, and has a few other quirks, but it at least has a decent chance of giving us some unambiguous answers.

Art Carlson
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:56 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by Art Carlson »

KitemanSA wrote:
Art Carlson wrote: I guess you haven't been reading my posts. I've spent a good deal of effort over the last six months explaining why, given everything I know about plasma physics, the polywell shouldn't work.
....
....Even if we knew for sure that the polywell could never produce net fusion power, cusp confinement also has applications in technological plasmas and space plasmas.
Now you see, this is one of the reasons I have been having trouble following you. It SEEMS you are saying this won't work because cusp confinement doesn't work well. But as far as I can tell (not too far but tenatiously :wink: ) the cusps aren't being asked to confine anything.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but my understanding has the wiffle-ball acting as a quasi-spherical mirror with holes in it and the holes let electrons fountain out wherein they are returned by the positive bias charge on the magrid. I guess the holes are called cusps. I also see that Dr. B used a term "funny cusp" to describe what a modeler termed a singularity. Whatever you call it, it makes a hole. But once a) the mirror is made less quasi and more spherical, and b) the cross brace (aka stub) is moved away from the "funny cusp", you get almost perfect electrostatic confinement with no loss path.

What about this shouldn't work?
The most relevant thread is All that can go wrong with recirculation. Unfortunately, it is long, and relevant tidbits occur on almost every page. Basically, I contend that any combination of electric and magnetic fields that will prevent eletrons from being lost through the cusps will allow or encourage ions to be lost that way. It's not good enough to look at the confinement of one species. Ion loss and electron loss are equally devastating.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by MSimon »

Art Carlson wrote:
What about this shouldn't work?
The most relevant thread is All that can go wrong with recirculation. Unfortunately, it is long, and relevant tidbits occur on almost every page. Basically, I contend that any combination of electric and magnetic fields that will prevent eletrons from being lost through the cusps will allow or encourage ions to be lost that way. It's not good enough to look at the confinement of one species. Ion loss and electron loss are equally devastating.
Art,

Maybe. Maybe not.

Here is the power supply company:

http://www.divtecs.com/

As long as almost everything that goes out the holes comes back in (electrons) and if you have a way to prevent upscattering then it MIGHT work. The theory is you have to pump in electrons to make up for the losses.

It may work. It may not. But for $10 million we will learn a lot more about plasmas in regions we have yet to explore well. Magnetic bottle practice will advance for regimes not currently contemplated. Or it may be a total waste. Loan the hardware to the next guy who thinks he has a good idea.

With at least 1/2 the money tied up in portable capital which will have moderate residual value I think even at $10 million out of pocket it is worth exploring. I believe the last time we had this discussion The question was "is it worth $2 million". So far $2 million and change gone and no show stoppers. I have just raised my sights. I want to see continuous operation. And I'm going to move heaven and earth to make it so. Just like last time.
Last edited by MSimon on Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

StevePoling
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: grand rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: all one's eggs in one basket

Post by StevePoling »

Art Carlson wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Again, I may be missing something, but everything I have seen suggests Polywell should work, and if it does, would get there bf&c.
I guess you haven't been reading my posts. I've spent a good deal of effort over the last six months explaining why, given everything I know about plasma physics, the polywell shouldn't work.
Can anyone articulate an experiment that would falsify either proposition? I mean something cheaper than building a fully-operational Wiffleball-N?

I suppose I'm asking if you physics boffins agree on the characteristics required of plasma in order for Polywell to work or not? Then how can we demonstrate plasma lacks one of them?

Post Reply