Test result details - they detected light as well?

Discuss how polywell fusion works; share theoretical questions and answers.

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TallDave
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Test result details - they detected light as well?

Post by TallDave »

I hadn't noticed this before:
Fourth, the PMT registered a large pulse for 4 of the 5 tests, indicating a large light output, in
the center of the machine, at exactly the time of the counts. There is nothing there in the PMT’s
field of view to cause an arc (which usually is the culprit for noise).
http://ecow.engr.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/getbi ... nl0107.pdf

That's interesting. Adds a bit of additional credence to their claims, perhaps.

dch24
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Post by dch24 »

So there was something that struck me ever since I read the WB6 test results. This probably reveals just how little physics I know, but if somebody could explain...

Why are they using a photomultiplier? Would a regular CCD or shuttered device (I'm thinking of a SLR camera, but anything like that) not be sensitive enough?

I guess I don't know the light levels involved, and perhaps the photomultipliers are used for the highest degree of accuracy possible. Can someone elaborate more?

scareduck
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Post by scareduck »

Just a random guess, but perhaps it's spectrum sensitivity that's the issue.

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Post by MSimon »

dch24 wrote:So there was something that struck me ever since I read the WB6 test results. This probably reveals just how little physics I know, but if somebody could explain...

Why are they using a photomultiplier? Would a regular CCD or shuttered device (I'm thinking of a SLR camera, but anything like that) not be sensitive enough?

I guess I don't know the light levels involved, and perhaps the photomultipliers are used for the highest degree of accuracy possible. Can someone elaborate more?
Absolute sensitivity is the greatest with a PM tube - something on the order of 1E6 electrons per photon detected. They are also very fast. In the order of 1 GHz bandwidth.
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scareduck
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Post by scareduck »

Could somebody explain what beta=1 refers to?

I noticed that Bussard used commercial headlights for his electron generators! Maybe that's what was causing the light they detected (only partly joking).

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Post by TallDave »

MSimon wrote:They are also very fast. In the order of 1 GHz bandwidth.
That would be my guess, as they're chasing a quarter-millisecond event.
I noticed that Bussard used commercial headlights for his electron generators! Maybe that's what was causing the light they detected (only partly joking).
Heh. Well, if that were the case, you would expect to see the light at times other than just "exactly" when fusion was supposedly occurring. Also, the notes claim all other light sources were out of its view.
Last edited by TallDave on Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scareduck
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Post by scareduck »

TallDave wrote:
I noticed that Bussard used commercial headlights for his electron generators! Maybe that's what was causing the light they detected (only partly joking).
Heh. Well, if that were the case, you would expect to see the light at times other than just "exactly" when fusion was supposedly occurring. Also, the notes claim all other source were out of its view.
"On" time to steady state for a tungsten light bulb filament would be on the order of hundreds of milliseconds. I don't really think this would have been an issue for the short tests they were measuring here, but in a longer experiment it might have become one.

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Post by MSimon »

Electron guns do not generally get hot enough for much light emission.
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drmike
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Post by drmike »

Come on Simon, you're old enough to remember the warm glow of tubes!

I agree with you that thermionic emission from an electron source is not going to give you that much light though. It makes sense that if the plasma was hot enough for fusion it was easily very highly ionized and radiating photons across a very wide spectrum, including the visible.

Having tools to measure the light spectrum from a Polywell would be a nice thing. It's just one more diagnostic to help prove the point.

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Post by MSimon »

drmike wrote:Come on Simon, you're old enough to remember the warm glow of tubes!
Kinda reddish glow as I recall.
I agree with you that thermionic emission from an electron source is not going to give you that much light though. It makes sense that if the plasma was hot enough for fusion it was easily very highly ionized and radiating photons across a very wide spectrum, including the visible.

Having tools to measure the light spectrum from a Polywell would be a nice thing. It's just one more diagnostic to help prove the point.
An ultraviolet filter ought to do the job. At least for the simpler setups.

Then for the more complex experiments: UV VIS IR filter and PM Tube sets.

With a continuous running reactor a scanning spectrophotometer.

All this simplified for production reactors as experiments warrant.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

dch24
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Post by dch24 »

MSimon wrote:Absolute sensitivity is the greatest with a PM tube - something on the order of 1E6 electrons per photon detected. They are also very fast. In the order of 1 GHz bandwidth.
Thanks! Wikipedia was fairly unhelpful on this one.

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Post by TallDave »

I got in an amusing tussle with Art Carlson over this on the Polywell wikipedia discussion when he removed its mention there.

I told him if he didn't think light had anything to do with fusion, he should go outside and look up. He told me to look at a bonfire. I promised to check WB-6 for piles of wood.

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Post by TallDave »

It makes sense that if the plasma was hot enough for fusion it was easily very highly ionized and radiating photons across a very wide spectrum, including the visible.
True, but would you expect the timing on the PMT to match that of the neutron counts?

My assumption was all the other effects were either ruled out by the timing. But I don't really know.

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Post by Roger »

TallDave wrote: I promised to check WB-6 for piles of wood.
LOL, I got a good chuckle from that... LOL ....Piles of wood... LOL
I like the p-B11 resonance peak at 50 KV acceleration. In2 years we'll know.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Here is the source doc on the PMT events:

<i>The measured data from these tests shows DD fusion neutron production (Fig. 7) of about
5E4 neutrons over a period of about 0.2 msec (less than the data rate interval), which also shows the
emitter current of injected electrons (Fig. 8) to run at about 4-40 A during this short pulse period of
fusion generation. .This peak pulse period is also indicated by light output measurements from the
photomultiplier tube detectors (Fig. 9). The PMT showed a rise to peak output as the internal
machine neutral gas was fully ionized, a flat-top during the onset of the external glow discharge, and
a rapid falloff as this condition was passed. The actual rise was certainly faster than the data rate
showed, so that at the peak, the edge electron density was a maximum, the full well depth was
established, and DD fusion was taking place. Beyond this time, the potential on the machine dropped
(Fig. 10) as external arcing (from the tank walls and feedthroughs) took over, the external current
rose to very high values (Fig. 11), and the system discharged and shut down.</i>

So presumably they understand the difference between light from glowing plasma and light from something that is not glowing plasma.

<i>Fourth, the PMT registered a large pulse for 4 of the 5 tests, indicating a large light output, in
the center of the machine, at exactly the time of the counts. There is nothing there in the PMT’s
field of view to cause an arc (which usually is the culprit for noise).</i>

It proves little or nothing by itself, of course, but if I'm reading this right it sounds like it could be supporting evidence.

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