Liberal view of Government.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:51 pm

A "progressive" advocacy group has selected a winner in its contest to find the best pro-government option art:

The image speaks for itself.

Oh, and as usual, the progressive twit gets the facts wrong. The quote is NOT from Thomas Jefferson. It is from Henry St John, 1st Viscount Bolingbroke.

(URL is too long. I'll post it if anyone really wants to see it.)

alexjrgreen · Post by **alexjrgreen** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:59 pm

It's from The Idea of a Patriot King. Written for George III's father Frederick, Prince of Wales.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:47 pm

It's only a good ad if you don't have much anatomical savvy. The heart is just circulation. It's just one of many organs (e.g. lungs or lymph nodes that supply the circulatory medium with something to circulate) for a working body. I'd say that's not a brilliant ad; which is the only kind of ad worth using.

That is, if the ad is furthering the agenda that govt is the epicenter of all things essential to the nation. If it means to communicate the idea that govt is the center of one of a few systems vital to the nation, it's a pretty good ad.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:11 pm

Betruger wrote:It's only a good ad if you don't have much anatomical savvy. The heart is just circulation. It's just one of many organs (e.g. lungs or lymph nodes that supply the circulatory medium with something to circulate) for a working body. I'd say that's not a brilliant ad; which is the only kind of ad worth using.

That is, if the ad is furthering the agenda that govt is the epicenter of all things essential to the nation. If it means to communicate the idea that govt is the center of one of a few systems vital to the nation, it's a pretty good ad.

It would be more anatomically correct if it showed Washington D.C. as a combined Oral/Anal orifice.
It sucks up money, and poops out crap, most of which consists of feeding the parasitic bacteria that line it's digestive tract. (Government Employees, Lawyers, lobbyists, etc.)

It could also be accurate if it portrayed Washington as a cancer with it's concurrent massive arterial system which allows it to gorge on the blood of the poor creature that it is killing.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:53 pm

That's the dirty reality.. I was thinking in an optimistic friendly govt perspective. Whether that thing exists is another story

IntLibber · Post by **IntLibber** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:00 am

Typical progressive blind spots not even seeing the self contradictions. How can you have liberty when public option is paid for by confiscation of private property?

Oh and I'd like to be in the part that gets amputated, thanks...

JoeOh · Post by **JoeOh** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:40 am

IntLibber wrote:Typical progressive blind spots not even seeing the self contradictions. How can you have liberty when public option is paid for by confiscation of private property?

Oh and I'd like to be in the part that gets amputated, thanks...

Oh yea? How can you have life when private insurance companies take the service away you paid for??

JohnSmith · Post by **JohnSmith** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:42 pm

Typical progressive blind spots not even seeing the self contradictions. How can you have liberty when public option is paid for by confiscation of private property?

Oh and I'd like to be in the part that gets amputated, thanks...

I know you hate the idea of taxes, but there are some things that just don't work very well when privatized. Roads, power, water, sewage, radio bands... Without some form of administration, it all goes to hell. I like my Wifi, I like my cell phone, I like my roads and electricity. And I like my 'socialist' health care, thanks.

Move to antartica. Grow your own food. Nobody will stop you, no one will steal from you, and I'll cheer you on from over here. Don't have the money?

Die. It's the free market thing to do.

seedload · Post by **seedload** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:16 pm

JohnSmith wrote:
Typical progressive blind spots not even seeing the self contradictions. How can you have liberty when public option is paid for by confiscation of private property?

Oh and I'd like to be in the part that gets amputated, thanks...
I know you hate the idea of taxes, but there are some things that just don't work very well when privatized. Roads, power, water, sewage, radio bands... Without some form of administration, it all goes to hell. I like my Wifi, I like my cell phone, I like my roads and electricity. And I like my 'socialist' health care, thanks.

Move to antartica. Grow your own food. Nobody will stop you, no one will steal from you, and I'll cheer you on from over here. Don't have the money?

Die. It's the free market thing to do.

Don't you think that telling someone to die who doesn't want to pay for other peoples health care is a little over the top? Besides, if he dies, then doesn't it defeat the purpose - you know - of him living so that he can be forced to pay for someone elses healthcare. Well, I guess an inheritance tax could take care of that. But an inheritance tax isn't really sustainable. Maybe rather than ordering him to die, you could just stick him in jail till he learns his lesson. Hey, wait, that IS the plan. Nevermind.

JohnSmith · Post by **JohnSmith** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:15 pm

No, I'm telling him to move to antartica if he doesn't want to pay a government he doesn't like, and if he can't afford the equipment to keep him alive, he should die there.

The problem is that there are people who are in the position of not being able to pay their own health care - free market says they have to die. It sucks that we have to carry the ball, but since there's a chance I'll need that safety net soon, I'm just as happy it's there.

*edit: I guess I should clarify - I'm Canadian, and have been suffering the horrors of government run health care my entire life. Guess what? It's great!

seedload · Post by **seedload** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:11 pm

JohnSmith wrote:No, I'm telling him to move to antartica if he doesn't want to pay a government he doesn't like, and if he can't afford the equipment to keep him alive, he should die there.

The problem is that there are people who are in the position of not being able to pay their own health care - free market says they have to die. It sucks that we have to carry the ball, but since there's a chance I'll need that safety net soon, I'm just as happy it's there.

*edit: I guess I should clarify - I'm Canadian, and have been suffering the horrors of government run health care my entire life. Guess what? It's great!

You are a Canadian commenting on US healthcare claiming that anyone who doesn't want it to be socialized should get out and go to Antartica and die? Not out of Canada, but out of the United States!?! Now that's a pair you have there.

Anyway, obviously the United States is not an example of people who can't afford health care just being left to die. It is a convient picture to paint, but it isn't true.

IntLibber commented on Liberty which has a kind of destinctive and uniquely American meaning to those of us who still respect the ideas of our founding.

regards

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Well, as you all know... there are people that can not get health insurance.
This can be because they are inbetween two jobs, because they are suffering from a preexisting condition, or because they are simply poor.
People without health insurance wont get treatments unless they are very rich.
People that wont get treatments will die.
It is that simple.
Of course there is always the "american" option of suing your doctor after receiving a treatment. This is among the main reasons why health care costs in the US are exploding. AND dont try to get at me with the whole "free rider thing". it is bullshit. Cost for medication only makes 12% of the health care cost in the US. The rest is cost for doctors, hospitals and other things. Doctors that ask way to much money for services because they have to pay way to high malpractice insurance costs.
Of course there are also the occasional "star doctors" that get paid waaaay more than they are worth. My father is a medical doctor himself and he has observed the situation pretty well.
A system that works rather well, despite lots of management shortcomings and to many asylants that get treatments for free, is the Austrian system.
We pay 7.6% of our BIP for health care. 7.6% !
That is waaaaay less than the cost in the US.

JohnSmith · Post by **JohnSmith** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:39 pm

seedload wrote: You are a Canadian commenting on US healthcare claiming that anyone who doesn't want it to be socialized should get out and go to Antartica and die? Not out of Canada, but out of the United States!?! Now that's a pair you have there.

Anyway, obviously the United States is not an example of people who can't afford health care just being left to die. It is a convient picture to paint, but it isn't true.

IntLibber commented on Liberty which has a kind of destinctive and uniquely American meaning to those of us who still respect the ideas of our founding.

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. He said he wanted to be 'amputated' from the government. Well, to do that, he'd have to move to antartica or something. And if he's not paying taxes to anyone, like he's wishing, then I hope he can afford all the equipment he'll need to survive. But I really doubt it - it's expensive stuff. So: Amputated, can't afford equipment = dead.
Not -I- want him to die, and nothing to do with health care.

Maybe I'm wrong about current US health care, but what happens to people who can't afford cancer meds?

Bleh. The US has no monopoly on liberty, and they don't even have the best track record. Yeah, you love liberty, and all those nastys in government are the problem, but only US citizens could possibly understand the ideals! Give me a break.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:34 pm

JohnSmith wrote:
Typical progressive blind spots not even seeing the self contradictions. How can you have liberty when public option is paid for by confiscation of private property?

Oh and I'd like to be in the part that gets amputated, thanks...
I know you hate the idea of taxes, but there are some things that just don't work very well when privatized. Roads, power, water, sewage, radio bands... Without some form of administration, it all goes to hell. I like my Wifi, I like my cell phone, I like my roads and electricity. And I like my 'socialist' health care, thanks.

There are proper roles for government. The Federal government is tasked with defending the nation and mitigating disputes between states.

The states are responsible for enforcing criminal and civil laws, establishing and maintaining roads, etc.

The municipal governments are responsible for water and sewer, and in some cities, electrical power distribution.

No government is responsible for Cell Phones, other than perhaps the FCC in it's role of regulating them. The FCC is certainly not tasked with creating them or building out their infrastructure.

The governing documents of this nation certainly never intended to cover "Health Care", but idiot people who can neither understand nor respect the original ideas which formed this country have managed to gull a sufficient quantity of fellow idiots into boosting them up to a position where they can pledge money from the public treasury to pay for all sorts of crap that ought to be the responsibility of each individual.

JohnSmith wrote: Move to antartica. Grow your own food. Nobody will stop you, no one will steal from you, and I'll cheer you on from over here.

How about we let everyone who wants to be socialized pay for the government programs, and everyone who doesn't want to be socialized doesn't have to be forced to pay for these programs ?

As Walter Williams is fond of saying, "the Problem I have with communism is that they always want to include me in it. "

We abolished slavery. Except nowadays liberals keep trying to creep it back onto us. They say it's not 100% slavery, because we only take 50 % of what you earn. Yet every year they keep trying to impose a larger percentage of slavery on us.

JohnSmith wrote: Don't have the money? Die. It's the free market thing to do.

When people become that desperate, you liberals will die first. I will direct your attention to the record breaking never before seen sales of guns and ammunition.

I assure you the people who are buying this stuff would like nothing better than to get revenge on the people who triggered an economic collapse if we should have one.
These people buying the guns are not liberals. They are Conservatives/Libertarians, Realists/Pragmatists.

In an economic collapse, (or major revolution) the liberals always die first. The French revolution was spawned and fed by the indolent children and wives of the wealthy aristocracy until the whirlwind they sowed reaped their heads.

History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, and secondly as a farce.

alexjrgreen · Post by **alexjrgreen** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:57 pm

Diogenes wrote:We abolished slavery.

When I worked in Silicon Valley, I was shocked to find that it was supported by an army of bonded labour - people who couldn't afford to lose their jobs because their family would lose their health insurance.