Liberal view of Government.

[MirariNefas]

When people become that desperate, you liberals will die first. I will direct your attention to the record breaking never before seen sales of guns and ammunition.

Crazy is in.

[Diogenes]

No, I'm telling him to move to antartica if he doesn't want to pay a government he doesn't like, and if he can't afford the equipment to keep him alive, he should die there.

How about letting people live where they are born and not forcing them to participate in something that they don't want to participate in ?

The problem is that there are people who are in the position of not being able to pay their own health care - free market says they have to die. It sucks that we have to carry the ball, but since there's a chance I'll need that safety net soon, I'm just as happy it's there.

The problem is, that a lot of people got the notion they can free load off of others, and now feel entitled to do so.
(It's that slavery thing again.)

*edit: I guess I should clarify - I'm Canadian, and have been suffering the horrors of government run health care my entire life. Guess what? It's great!

You are obviously young, and your parents are obviously sufficiently monied to send you to University. Most young people don't have serious medical problems anyway, so how can you proffer you minimalist experience as useful insight to the wonderfulness of the Canadian Health care system?


A few months ago I attended a health care reform town hall meeting with State Representatives and Senators. One of the Reps was the speaker of the house who informed us that he had three Canadian doctors who were members of his church. He lives in a very small rural town.

At the same meeting, a Friend of mine (who happens to be an M.D.) told me that he used to practice in Michigan, and he said that half his patients were Canadians.

I dare say there is an iceberg's worth of stuff below the water that you may not have seen.

[Diogenes]

Well, as you all know... there are people that can not get health insurance.
This can be because they are inbetween two jobs, because they are suffering from a preexisting condition, or because they are simply poor.
People without health insurance wont get treatments unless they are very rich.
People that wont get treatments will die.
It is that simple.
Of course there is always the "american" option of suing your doctor after receiving a treatment. This is among the main reasons why health care costs in the US are exploding. AND dont try to get at me with the whole "free rider thing". it is bullshit. Cost for medication only makes 12% of the health care cost in the US. The rest is cost for doctors, hospitals and other things. Doctors that ask way to much money for services because they have to pay way to high malpractice insurance costs.
Of course there are also the occasional "star doctors" that get paid waaaay more than they are worth. My father is a medical doctor himself and he has observed the situation pretty well.
A system that works rather well, despite lots of management shortcomings and to many asylants that get treatments for free, is the Austrian system.
We pay 7.6% of our BIP for health care. 7.6% !
That is waaaaay less than the cost in the US.

Skipjack, i've seen you make reasoned arguments before, so I count you as a person willing to think about things.

I assert, (and have long asserted) that insurance is the primary cause of health care costs being excessive here in America. (Yes, lawsuits are a serious component as well.)

As evidence, I would like to direct your attention to lasik eye surgery. I just recently saw a video featuring a doctor who was one of the first to pioneer lasik eye surgery, and he asserted that when lasik eye surgery was new, it cost $2,500.00 per eye. He said that 15 years later, the procedure now cost $600.00 per eye, and is far more accurate and successful than ever before.

Better medical procedure at much reduced cost. Why does this medical procedure buck the normal trend ? ITS NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE! He points out that when someone else is paying the bill (like an insurance company) there is no incentive to price shop or keep costs low.
When someone is spending their OWN money, they will try to get the best value for their cost.


I have myself personally had to deal with hospitals and doctors on many occasions. I know for a fact that you can get discounts as large as 50% if you are willing to pay cash up front. I've personally done this.

[Diogenes]

We abolished slavery.

When I worked in Silicon Valley, I was shocked to find that it was supported by an army of bonded labour - people who couldn't afford to lose their jobs because their family would lose their health insurance.

Over the years I have come to realize that the vast majority of people do in fact favor slavery. They just don't want the moral onus of being associated with favoring slavery.

But every time someone wants to force others to do this or that, or pay this amount of tax or that, it is to that degree that they are wishing to be the master, and wishing for the other person to be the slave.

[JohnSmith]

Not slavery, Diogenes. That would be an association fallacy. After all, there is nothing stopping you from walking away and living off the land except the fact that you like all those little modern convinces that society provides.

And I do agree that freeloaders are a problem. I just think that if we're going to have a cost, it would be better to have the cost of freeloaders than the human cost of people dieing because they don't have enough money.

And as for your opinions of me, well, you got two things right. I'm young, and my parents are upper middle class. That said, I've broken bones, destroyed joints, been in a car accident on the highway and suffered a hernia (that really sucked). I also have two friends who suffer from schizophrenia and clinical depression, so I've encountered a good range of medical options in this country. Oh, and I pay my own way through university. Which costs enough to make me part of the working poor. You know, those guys who are freeloading off that government healthcare. You know what they say about assumptions...

[Betruger]

One of the false dichotomies above: that you either pay for govt services, or don't have them at all. Better yet, make it so you only pay for it if you intend to receive its benefits. That's what he's getting at with the amputate quip. He doesn't want to be under govt's tentacle. It's not hard to interpret that way unless you're determined to wave some country or party's flag before discussion even starts.

[JoeOh]

Funny thing when it comes to taxes, no one wants to pay the taxes for public services they claim they don't want or need.....

UNTIL their house catches fire in the middle of the night for whatever reason. If you're one of these so-called "rugged individualists" you better have an extra fire truck parked in the garage and a fat cistern of water to boot.

Wait, you don't have an extra fire-truck and a fat tank of water "just in case" the fire happens? Then I suggest you shut the f*** up and pay the small duty out your paychecks.

[TDPerk]

"Wait, you don't have an extra fire-truck and a fat tank of water "just in case" the fire happens? Then I suggest you shut the f*** up and pay the small duty out your paychecks."

Except since only about 10% or less of the "small duty" goes to anything rationally or even traditionally government's job--let alone in the constitution RE the feds--and even the local cops do a great deal that isn't any of their business; why don't you STFU until you have something to say that's true or even relevant.

Your comment will kill a few hundred brain cells in everyone who reads it.

[JoeOh]

My comment will kill a few hundred brain cells??

So I guess that would mean that after you read it, you're fresh out of brain cells. Sucks to be you.

Haw haw-

[TDPerk]

So Joe, I guess you have no substantive response to this:

"Except since only about 10% or less of the "small duty" goes to anything rationally or even traditionally government's job--let alone in the constitution RE the feds--and even the local cops do a great deal that isn't any of their business; why don't you STFU until you have something to say that's true or even relevant."

[TDPerk]

Oh, Joe, your sig is a hilarious example of cluelessness:

"I'd trade it all, for a little more"

What your saying above is you'll trade it all for less and less...

...and you'll do is

[JoeOh]

It's just a tongue-in-cheek expression I got from the simpsons. Just because I would trade it all, doesn't mean I always will. since we are splitting hairs here I had to point that out.

And you want to talk about substance? How about backing up your "10%" claim with a website. And it better not be a right-winger fact-skewing poll or something.

Your turn-

[IntLibber]

Typical progressive blind spots not even seeing the self contradictions. How can you have liberty when public option is paid for by confiscation of private property?

Oh and I'd like to be in the part that gets amputated, thanks...

I know you hate the idea of taxes, but there are some things that just don't work very well when privatized. Roads, power, water, sewage, radio bands... Without some form of administration, it all goes to hell. I like my Wifi, I like my cell phone, I like my roads and electricity. And I like my 'socialist' health care, thanks.

Move to antartica. Grow your own food. Nobody will stop you, no one will steal from you, and I'll cheer you on from over here. Don't have the money?

Die. It's the free market thing to do.

I am a resident of a community by the name of Eastman, in New Hampshire, which covers parts of Grantham, Enfield, and Springfield. It is a private corporation owned by the residents. It owns the roads, water, fire, security. Our sewer needs are taken care of by a septic system, which works just fine. The water is higher quality than in town. So are the roads. We save so much on taxes, having an exemption from many local property taxes, that the excess we use to fund an 18 hole golf course, cross country ski trails, and multiple beaches on a large lake that the community surrounds.

On any given day I can wake up to find deer, moose, bear, turkey, or other wild animals and birds in my yard.

Our internet is with the cable company. Phone is also from a private company, as is the tv service. All these things are privatized, and my tax rates are far lower I will bet than yours are (even counting my community fees as 'taxes').

Without some form of OWNERSHIP, it all goes to hell. It's called the tragedy of the commons for a reason. What is owned by everybody is owned by nobody, and abused by everyone else.

The area of governance in the US where I pay the most and get the least back is the one I have the least amount of say-so over, the federal government.

[JoeOh]

"A private corporation owned by the residents"? Sounds like another name for "government" to me. Whatever rings your bell.

[Betruger]

Funny thing when it comes to taxes, no one wants to pay the taxes for public services they claim they don't want or need.....

UNTIL their house catches fire in the middle of the night for whatever reason. If you're one of these so-called "rugged individualists" you better have an extra fire truck parked in the garage and a fat cistern of water to boot.

Wait, you don't have an extra fire-truck and a fat tank of water "just in case" the fire happens? Then I suggest you shut the f*** up and pay the small duty out your paychecks.

For a second there you had it. Yes, I and many other people I've met (I did think I was the only one for a while) do in fact do everything on my own, as far as humanly possible. It's fun and it's rewarding.
Do you actually tell people face to face to shut the F up?

Whatever rings your bell.

IOW you concede.