A Green Wants to Reduce the Numbr of Humans on Earth

[MSimon]

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http://timprosserfuturing.wordpress.com ... a-whimper/

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Population reduction can be achieved the easy way, by a massive, worldwide educational effort focused especially on the developing countries, if it successfully convinces people to almost completely stop having children in the next decade, and to limit their family sizes thereafter. The alternative is a set of frightening scenarios I won’t mention here, except to say that “the four horsemen” come to mind. If we are smart, and public policy can be turned to address overpopulation in the near term as opposed to just symptoms such as climate change and pollution, we may be able to find an easier path to the future than the worst cases. I don’t know how many major problems will have to crop up before the majority of people begin to understand the situation, though.

I, for one, continue to harangue my political representatives to make overpopulation a part of their thinking, their platforms, and the bills they propose and support, but this sort of action is needed from a lot more people than are apparently aware of the situation now.

And if convincing doesn't work?

We have other ways.

[djolds1]

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http://timprosserfuturing.wordpress.com ... a-whimper/

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Population reduction can be achieved the easy way, by a massive, worldwide educational effort focused especially on the developing countries, if it successfully convinces people to almost completely stop having children in the next decade, and to limit their family sizes thereafter. The alternative is a set of frightening scenarios I won’t mention here, except to say that “the four horsemen” come to mind. If we are smart, and public policy can be turned to address overpopulation in the near term as opposed to just symptoms such as climate change and pollution, we may be able to find an easier path to the future than the worst cases. I don’t know how many major problems will have to crop up before the majority of people begin to understand the situation, though.

I, for one, continue to harangue my political representatives to make overpopulation a part of their thinking, their platforms, and the bills they propose and support, but this sort of action is needed from a lot more people than are apparently aware of the situation now.

And if convincing doesn't work?

We have other ways.

The middle class muffins in the Former Yugoslavia thought they could play the militant game, have some minor fun, and come out heroes. Then they lit the match and matters slipped out of their control.

All provo against the West, both internal and external, presumes that the population will remain quiescent. That has been the deal within the civil society of the West ever since the Peace of Westphalia and end of the wars of religion. States start and end wars, armies fight them, and the population stays out but is guaranteed their lives and property.

That settlement has been fracturing since WWII, but isn't gone yet.

Push far enough and that settlement collapses. It is possible to win people's wars, but not by negotiation. You win them by Hama Rules. Carthaginian Rules. Trojan Rules.

Raise all structures and monuments of the enemy culture to the ground. Salt the earth. Kill all the males over 13. Rape the women. Enslave the women and children. Scatter the remaining population to the four winds, and thus kill the culture. There is no enemy "people" left to come back at you in the next generation.

Play the game this moron wants to and death lists as seen in Argentina will appear. When the prey goes to ground, you leave it no ground to go to. Kill all the intelligentsia fellow travelers. No trials, just disappeared. This type of war would cause enough slaughter to gag a maggot. But if this moron and his fellow bien pensants think they can declare war on this entire society, sterilize vast tracts of people, and walk away laughing and celebrating their righteousness...

Well, if they want to play it, this game can definitely be played.

Duane

[MSimon]

Nice one Duane!

[djolds1]

Nice one Duane!

I stopped my metaphysical search for the "can't we all just get along" Third Way on September 11, 2001.

Lex Talonis.

[rj40]

I thought world population was supposed to start dropping in the next 60 years. In fact, in most "western" style countries I read the birth rate has dropped close to or even below replacement levels. I think introducing two things to developing countries would have the greatest 'ffect on lowering birth rates. Granting equal opportunity for women (at least in the developing countries in which it doesn't already exist) and raising living standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

Question: how best do you raise living standards?

This thread seems much less controversial than the some of the others out there.

[djolds1]

I thought world population was supposed to start dropping in the next 60 years.

It is. The "Limits of Growth" model from the '70s that kick-started the various eco-apocalypse theories, Malthusian Meltdown included, has been a bad joke since 1985.

The fanatics don't care.

This thread seems much less controversial than the some of the others out there.

[MSimon]

This thread seems much less controversial than the some of the others out there.

Only because he leaves out what the "or else..." option entails. I leave that up to your imagination.

[drmike]

China executed the "or else" option long ago. The only country that really has a population growth problem is India and they are working hard on not using the "or else" option. Japan just reported they have 1.3 births per female over all, so they have a major problem the other way - not enough people to do the work as more people retire.

Once we can get into space and have to populate Mars and the asteroid belt, I don't think "over population" is going to be much of a problem. That's the problem with Malthusian modeling, reality is a lot bigger than most people imagine.

[Solo]

Well, if oil prices really skyrocket when we finally start to see an actual decline in total world production (and I think this is just around the corner, next 10 yr or so), and if the shock is hard enough to collapse US and international economies, I think we will start to see something worthy of those horsemen. Because everyone knows that the poor are the ones who will loose out when oil gets more expensive. I think I, living in the US, will probably be able to smell the death in Africa and India.

And I think the US will do what it does best: drop the whole pretense of being a gentle giant, and try to secure its 'interests overseas': ie, nuke the s**t out of anyone who gets between them and controlling the Middle East. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but I also don't have much faith in the people here, who think they deserve the ridiculous standard of living they are stealing.

[rj40]

And I think the US will do what it does best: drop the whole pretense of being a gentle giant, and try to secure its 'interests overseas': ie, nuke the s**t out of anyone who gets between them and controlling the Middle East. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but I also don't have much faith in the people here, who think they deserve the ridiculous standard of living they are stealing.

What the US does best is securing its interests overseas? Have you seen CNN lately? There is this place called Iraq where the US has not secured its interests very well at all. In fact, the US has been paying what amounts to bribe money to tyrants all over the world (Egypt, for example) to keep them, at least outwardly, “on our side.” Not a good idea in the long term. No, securing its overseas interests is not a US strong suit. If China doesn’t implode, then you will see how a country drops pretense to secure its interests around the world.
Around where I live (about 60 miles from New Orleans), there are a lot of people with a very low standard of living. They deserve better. Our standard of living on average is great; I would like to see India, China, and everyone else on this planet have the *option* for the same standard living. That seems hard to do with oil, solar, wind, geothermal; that’s why I really want Polywell to pan out. Standard nuclear might do it, but so many people are freaked out by it, that we can’t get it. I wonder if we would have gone into Iraq if the percentage of our power produced by standard nuclear was the same as that of France? Of course, I also wonder that if it was, if we would have had some Chernobyl type accidents by now?
If by stealing you mean from Iraq, we aren’t. We are paying dearly for…not much.
If by stealing you mean from the illegal immigrants in this country who don’t get at least minimum wage, you may be right. We need to stop that inflow and pay at least minimum wage to the folks already here legally. The African American community has been especially hard hit by this. Americans won’t work for minimum wage? Well, the market says the employer pays more. Unless of course, you import cheap labor that can’t go to authorities when abused.
Come to think of it, what *do* you mean by stealing and ridiculous standard of living?

[rj40]

Whoops! Sorry Solo, you said *try* to secure its "interests overseas." Missed the word try. Yes, you are correct on that. Most countries do that in one way or another.

[MSimon]

The American "Empire" is about obtaining access. It is not a mercantilist or colonial empire.

It pays market prices for what it buys and provides military protection for its lines of supply. In fact it also protects European, Indian, and Chinese lines of supply in the Gulf region. No extra charge. This brings political stability over time plus prosperity.

BTW you will note that despite the recent attacks on Iraq by Iranian proxies all the indicators there are headed in the right direction. Oil production - up. Electrical output - up. Business growing at 5% a year. Local militias are being squeezed out. The Iraqi Army is taking over more of the security duties. Self government is taking hold.

In the recent dust up in Basra The Iraq Army lost 88 dead. The Militia lost 600+. Not a bad exchange ratio for a new army.

As to American decline? It has been predicted for a very long time. It is doubtful the latest predictions will be any better than the previous ones.

[MSimon]

Farm workers in America are pretty well paid. I have heard of rates around $16 or $17 an hour.

Of course it is seasonal work so the workers probably have to find something less lucrative to do in the off season.

And why do they come if conditions are so hard? Things are worse where they came from.

America is what it always was. A place where people come to improve their life. What is wrong with that?

There are two ways to deal with cheap labor. Import the products or import the labor and do the work here. I think the second way is better. We can always use more Americans.

And if it is so hard here why do black immigrants prosper and black Americans seethe? Racism? I doubt it. Bad culture? More likely.

The libraries are open the internet is on. You can educate yourself and work your way up. I started out as a bench technician and worked my way up to aerospace engineer with out benefit of formal education. All it took was determination and hard work. I partied as hard as anyone. What did I do differently? I took a book or technical magazine to the parties.

What is the #1 attitude required - always be worth more than you are paid and be happy with that. Because if the boss ain't making a profit you ain't got a job.

[rj40]

The American "Empire" is about obtaining access. It is not a mercantilist or colonial empire.
<snip>
As to American decline? It has been predicted for a very long time. It is doubtful the latest predictions will be any better than the previous ones.

MSimon
I think I might agree with you on most of this. We do pay for most of what we get. Now, we often pay it to bad guys (take your pick), but we pay. Of course, when those bad guys forget to pass our payments to their people, then we get blamed. Nice way to deflect the hatred of their people.
Good to hear that on Iraq too. Not sure if I believe all of it (No! I don't think you’re lying, perhaps misinformed, or perhaps totally right I am wrong. I can always be wrong. I hate that.). But it does jibe with what I hear from people who have been there. I work with several folks. One came back with the news that things are indeed looking up - US working more constructively with the locals. Not great, but looking up. I suspect we are also paying folks off who would not normally work with us. What happens when we leave?
Yeah, I don't think America is in decline either. Or if it is, we are at the bottom of the "countries in decline list."

[rj40]

Farm workers in America are pretty well paid. I have heard of rates around $16 or $17 an hour.
<snip>

MSimon
Again, I think I agree with much of what you say. Holy smoke, what gives!?
The Mexican government has somehow made one of the all time worst blunders in human history. They are next door to the biggest economic power in history, they have a free trade agreement with that country, there are allowed to ruin their environment to a huge extent to, supposedly, help their economy. BUT their people are still, for the most part, in poverty. It is still more cost effective to import many goods from China than across the border to the US. India handles much of our calls for technical help. This is nuts.
When Mexican laborers (and Central and South American too) dropped by to help with Katrina cleanup and perhaps make a buck in the deal, they worked their butts off. These are some of the hardest working people I have ever seen (Actually, I wasn’t all that surprised; I know many are supporting families back home). I want those people to immigrate legally to the US. These folks would make great American citizens. Mexico doesn’t deserve them.
When a US employer hires an illegal, he is short circuiting the American dream. That worker has little vested interest in the success of the US. They work for the money, with little hope of advancement or starting their own company. We need a way to allow immigrants in, get them on a track to become citizens and fold them into American culture. Hiring illegals doesn’t do that. Guest worker program are OK, I guess, in limited numbers, but I want new citizens. Mexicans, Indians, Turks, you name it. But controlled and legal.
Not sure on the African American thing. That is so far out of my demographic it makes my nose bleed. Not good, I need to do better at learning more. I do get the local news out of New Orleans, and work with folks who grew up and lived in New Orleans. The African American community has been ravaged by drugs and crime. I have no clue on how to fix it.