If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

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rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

GIThruster wrote:...it would not be a huge surprise if tailless UCAV's already exist that vastly outperform the F-22. If that's true, or near true anytime soon, then it really doesn't make much sense to build more F-22's.
Probably true. It would be great to move into the UCAV era and depend on them to establish air superiority, except no one (almost certainly) has the bandwidth to remotely-control a fleet of high-performance UCAVs to their potential (don't forget jamming of control links) AND no one (even more certainly) has AI's capable of successfuly operating in combat situations nearly as well as people* in the airplane. It's bad not to have the airplanes you need for the war. It's as bad to not have everything else you need to _fly_ the airplanes during the war.

*As much as it pains to to agree with them, the USAF fighter mafia might be right about the need for people in the cockpit.
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Shipjack, I know you're smarter than this...

As long as Socialism exists, Communism will never be dead. Communism is simply "grown up Socialism". You can NOT have Socialism long term without it becoming full fledged Communism.

Sooner or later, some people will stand up and say "I'm sorry, no, you cannot steal half of my property to hand out to everyone else". At that point, the government either must say "ok, we won't take it", in which case it will collapse, OR it must put a gun to that person's head and blow his brains out if he does not comply.
What a pile of bullshit. Because half of Europe is communist by now, after 50 years of socialist dominated governments, or something?
I dont know what you are smoking, really!

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Dogfighting gets pilots killed.
BVR is the preferred method. UCAV's are just fine for VR or BVR, just not in a mix up.
In fact, with a good IFF system, you could have the UCAV's stand off and pickle off on targets with IFF sensitve weapons. Now that would certainly complicate the furball.
The idea of going into the flight with a force multiplier of UCAV's with Manned, would be a bonus.
Of course, I also as have stated before think that given the UCAV G and energy advantage, it would not be hard to have a missle firing "missile" riding on a manned badguy's six. The difference being that the UCAV only seeks to maintain position vice impact so it can make its shots. Even the reflexs improved for gun engagements would be an advantage. Predictive computer firing of the gun could be very effective if implemented properly. Probbaly even use less rounds, as it would probably be able to tell faster if the rounds were going to be effective or not.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Probably true. It would be great to move into the UCAV era and depend on them to establish air superiority, except no one (almost certainly) has the bandwidth to remotely-control a fleet of high-performance UCAVs to their potential (don't forget jamming of control links) AND no one (even more certainly) has AI's capable of successfuly operating in combat situations nearly as well as people* in the airplane. It's bad not to have the airplanes you need for the war. It's as bad to not have everything else you need to _fly_ the airplanes during the war.
I dont think that any of these issues are more of a problem than they are for current fighter jets. They too rely heavily on computers for many of their tasks. Heck they fall like a rock without a computer "flying" them because due to all the stealth stuff, their aerodynamics plain outright suck.
They also rely heavily on remote information like GPS signals, tracking signals from ground scouts, AVACS, etc. It is the age of Net Centric Warfare, if you have heard this term before. Every unit is talking to every unit and communication is most important. A pilot wont drop his bombs unless he gets the order from headquarters and the laser marker from a scout, or some satellite tracking information and the smart bombs wont hit their target without GPS or laser guidance.
Pretty much all that is susceptible to jamming in some way at some point, yet it has not really been such a huge problem yet, has it?
UAVs will not only get smarter, they will also have support from other units in the field. If they get jammed, these units will take out the jammer (very easy since the jammer lights up like a christmas tree). Until then, it wont fall down like a rock but keep flying on autopilot, or return to base, or there is some other means of controling the thing (longer wavelengths for non realtime basic instructions, or something like that).
UAVs are the future and yes it does away with all the Top Gun romanticism of the macho- aces flying to the danger zone.... and opens that job position to a whole lot of geeks out there. That means that UAV pilots will be a dime a dozen and their salaries will be low enough for the US to maintain a corps of thousands. The UAVs will also be cheap enough to have the same number. And if the evil China really was to build thousands of (probably lame) F22 clones, then the US can take them down with ten times as many UAVs that only cost half as much to produce.
The pure numbers game would make up for any advantage manned fighters could have (and dont forget that the US would still have plenty of manned planes for supporting the UAVs)
And while every Chinese elite pilot that gets shot down by one of the drones is either dead or a POW (and therefore a loss), the US UAV pilot is home for dinner the same evening and returns to fly a new UAV the next morning making use of the lessons that he learned when he was shot down by that "slit eye" the other day (and that will give them a much harder time next time around).
Things get really interesting with long duration missions, when the human pilot gets tired and has to pee, has to poop, is hungry and thirsty...
The geek controlling the UAV simply hands over to the next guy and goes to the toilet, has a lunch and coffe in the cantina, maybe a short nap and returns fully rested and perfectly happy to duty.
So, yeah you can see where I am going. UAVs are the future!
F22s are so yesterday!
This is the main reason why I am not sad that they were cancelled.
Plus in the current wars, they are much more useful than an F22.

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

Didn't say a thing about dog-fighting. Current doctrine is for F-22s to stay above and away from the fray and launch missiles and provide situation awareness data for everyone else (who can receive the data). I've heard of _one_ exercise where an F-22 snuck up behind an F-16 for a (simulated) gun kill.

Lone fighter pilot controling a wing-UCAV or two? They'd better have great automation because fighter pilots get busy with one airplane.

Jamming not been a problem so far? The USAF hasn't been up agaiinst a prepared enemy in the modern era. Want to bet things that are important to you the USAF never runs into a prepared enemy? If so, you won't have my vote for Secretary of Defense.

I don't love fighter pilots more than I should, but anyone who purports we have the real issues of "net-centric" warfare well enough figured out to trust it entirely may not be carefully reading the available information.

BTW, it may be cheaper to build vast numbers of UCAVs (compared to F-22s), but they still require support in the field and your cheaper UCAV remote pilots need places to sit, equipment to use, someone to fix the equipment, office buildings, etc. Don't imagine defense gets easier or cheaper because some of it is automated. The modern defense trends show it gets expensive.
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Current doctrine is for F-22s to stay above and away from the fray and launch missiles and provide situation awareness data for everyone else (who can receive the data).
Which is where the UAVs actually excell. They are smaller and have no glass cockpit, so they can be built to be stealthier. So they will see the enemy on the radar first.
Lone fighter pilot controling a wing-UCAV or two? They'd better have great automation because fighter pilots get busy with one airplane.
I think you will have plenty of geeks to have at least one, if not two pilots per UAV.
Jamming not been a problem so far?
As I said, IMHO jamming will affect a piloted craft quite negatively as well.
but anyone who purports we have the real issues of "net-centric" warfare well enough figured out to trust it entirely may not be carefully reading the available information.
I dont know what hole you have been living in the last ten years, but net centric warfare is happening right now, everywhere. It is not even a buzzword anymore, because it is already an old hat.
BTW, it may be cheaper to build vast numbers of UCAVs (compared to F-22s), but they still require support in the field
Which is what you have the existing F22s and plenty of other units for.
If you were to build more F22s, they would need a lot more support even.
and your cheaper UCAV remote pilots need places to sit, equipment to use, someone to fix the equipment, office buildings, etc.
And your F22 pilots would need just as much, if not more of that.
Plus, those cockpits are mighty expensive too...

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

rjaypeters wrote: BTW, it may be cheaper to build vast numbers of UCAVs (compared to F-22s), but they still require support in the field and your cheaper UCAV remote pilots need places to sit, equipment to use, someone to fix the equipment, office buildings, etc. Don't imagine defense gets easier or cheaper because some of it is automated. The modern defense trends show it gets expensive.
Point noted, but also ref the point made that UCAV's are vastly cheaper not only to build, but to design and fly. They don't have to be man rated. If they crash, no big deal. This makes development hugely cheaper.

Development costs vastly outweigh production costs. Point is, UCAV's are cheaper and easier to develop and that's the bigger piece of the pie.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

Skipjack wrote:I dont know what hole you have been living in the last ten years, but net centric warfare is happening right now, everywhere. It is not even a buzzword anymore, because it is already an old hat.
Operating in _completely_ permissive environments! Have those Afghan/Al Qaeda jammers been getting all the press lately?

Re: support in garrison and in the field:
Skipjack wrote:And your F22 pilots would need just as much, if not more of that.
Nope, you are planning on building vast numbers of UCAVs, more than ever envisioned for crewed fighters. Your concept has the logistics (BTW where are you to _land_ all those aircraft in theater? or are you just going to throw them away?), band-width (or AI) and jamming problems that go with larger numbers.
GIThruster wrote:If they crash, no big deal.
Your backyard or mine? At least a man or woman on board will try hard to avoid the civilians. Robo-pilot? Not so much, I think.

Our net-centric had better be ready to be countered by asymmetric warfare.
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Nope, you are planning on building vast numbers of UCAVs, more than ever envisioned for crewed fighters. Your concept has the logistics (BTW where are you to _land_ all those aircraft in theater? or are you just going to throw them away?), band-width (or AI) and jamming problems that go with larger numbers.
Well those UAVs are smaller and lighter than manned aircraft for once. So they need shorter runways for start and landing. They also need less storage space. Since you can control the UAV from pretty much anywhere in the world, you dont need as much space for crewmen on location (or on an aircraft carrier). So you again have more space for the UAVs.
band-width (or AI) and jamming problems that go with larger numbers
How would a larger number of UAVs increase the jamming problem?
IMHO it makes no difference of you were to support a squadron of 10 F22s or 100 UAVs with other units. The only thing that you would need more of is fuel and that is assuming that you really need ten times as many UAVs as manned planes, which I am not convinced of at all.

The weakest link is still the pilot. Training pilots is very expensive. They also need to stay physically in mint condition. Because of that, they retire active duty early. All this is a lot less of a problem with UAVs.
Your backyard or mine? At least a man or woman on board will try hard to avoid the civilians. Robo-pilot? Not so much, I think
You forget that that UAV is still piloted by a human. Since that human does not have to worry about saving his own ass, he is even more likely to make sure that the UAV crashes over a non populated area. Dont you think so?
Our net-centric had better be ready to be countered by asymmetric warfare.
Well, whether you like it or not, this is what is happening, even with the F22. So you win nothing by making F22s instead of UAVs.
Development costs vastly outweigh production costs. Point is, UCAV's are cheaper and easier to develop and that's the bigger piece of the pie.
Not only cheaper to develop (though I am not even to sure about that), but definitely cheaper to mass produce and test. Once you have a good design, you can build many more of them at little extra cost. It does not matter much whether you produce 100, or 400...

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

Skipjack, if you get some time, when you're finished with your long-winded dissertations on the benefits of current, ground-attack/ISR UCAVs and notional, future, air combat UCAVs, please address how all that fits in with US air superiority fighter needs for the next 20 years* while the above-pictured, real-hardware responses to the US F-22 roll off of their respective Chinese and Russian assembly lines**.

* In other words, that would be between now, year 2010 AD, and year 2030 AD, Gregorian calendar, without trying to over-burden you with technical minutiae.

** In planned quantities that only you and your contacts in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization member-states' Politburos know for sure.

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mdeminico
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Post by mdeminico »

Skipjack wrote:
Shipjack, I know you're smarter than this...

As long as Socialism exists, Communism will never be dead. Communism is simply "grown up Socialism". You can NOT have Socialism long term without it becoming full fledged Communism.

Sooner or later, some people will stand up and say "I'm sorry, no, you cannot steal half of my property to hand out to everyone else". At that point, the government either must say "ok, we won't take it", in which case it will collapse, OR it must put a gun to that person's head and blow his brains out if he does not comply.
What a pile of bullshit. Because half of Europe is communist by now, after 50 years of socialist dominated governments, or something?
I dont know what you are smoking, really!
I never said it would be fast.

Look at Greece and France. They finally realized they have to pay the bill, and they realized they can't take MORE money from the people, so they said "sorry, things are gonna change".

What happened? The WHINING "Give me your money" LAZY BASTARDS freaking rioted and looted and destroyed property. So what happens? They give in and say "we'll have someone give us the money" (aka the EU).

Sooner or later, that "someone" is going to run out, and nobody will be able to pay the bill.

What happens when they:
1) Can't borrow more money
2) Can't find someone to give them more money
3) Can't take more from the population and maintain their willing cooperation

??

I'll tell you what happens. An overly-dramatized version of it is spelled out in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged".

mdeminico
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Post by mdeminico »

Skipjack wrote:
Lone fighter pilot controling a wing-UCAV or two? They'd better have great automation because fighter pilots get busy with one airplane.
I think you will have plenty of geeks to have at least one, if not two pilots per UAV.
I don't think you quite understand the difficulties in robotics.

Having a 1-1 user-robot ratio is about the limit of the state-of-the-art right now. And that's for robots that don't require constant input (aka ground robots). If you've ever used a robot with more than just "forward/backwards/turn" capability, you know what I mean.

There's work being done that will allow one user to control multiple robots, but this requires intelligence on the part of the robot, especially when it comes to navigation, and especially especially would be the case in the event of an aircraft that requires constant monitoring.

If you can make the UAV capable of handling itself in all possible adverse situations including weather, up/down drafts, crosswinds, low, limited, or no visibility on visible or IR, etc, THEN you can possibly have a video-game type scenario where a robot does the maneuvering, and a person tells it "engage target X".

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

rjaypeters wrote:
GIThruster wrote:If they crash, no big deal.
Your backyard or mine? At least a man or woman on board will try hard to avoid the civilians. Robo-pilot? Not so much, I think.
I was speaking as regards development only--which means no back yard but rather out out in the desert.

Point is, you don't need 30 years or $65 billion to bring a UCAV to market.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

Skipjack wrote:How would a larger number of UAVs increase the jamming problem?
I don't know the math, but I do know there are only so many ways to divide the electromagnetic spectrum to get the data from the UCAVs to their controllers and back (or between cooperating UCAVs). Required links between communicating units goes up either linearly or exponentially with the number of units (depending on the communication scheme). More UCAVs means more slicing of the available spectrum so each individual data bit is that much more susceptible to jammer power and sophistication. Jammers are cheaper than even UCAVs.

Re: net-centric v. asymmetric warfare
Skipjack wrote:Well, whether you like it or not, this is what is happening, even with the F22. So you win nothing by making F22s instead of UAVs.
F-22s exist and work. Your notional UCAVs have not been shown to work. An F-22 in the hand is worth an infinity of something that does not exist.

Of course potential adversaries are working against the F-22 in a asymmetric fashion. At the moment, potential adversaries don't have to work against UCAVs that don't exist.

Oh, I agree almost any un-crewed system is cheaper to develop than a near equivalent crewed system. This argument should not only be about cost, but also effectiveness. F-22 effectiveness? Known. UCAV effectiveness? Not known.

I don't want to put our eggs in the basket of UCAVs until they have been shown to work. Let us have this discussiion again in a few years...
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

"China, by contrast, is projected to have no fifth generation aircraft by 2020. And by 2025, the gap only widens."
Speech to Economic Club of Chicago, As Delivered by Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates, Chicago, IL, Thursday, July 16, 2009
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