If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

IntLibber · Post by **IntLibber** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:19 am

93143 wrote:What sense does that make? I don't see any necessary connection between a PR goof like that and the threat posed by the J-20. Is the author of the article suggesting the J-20 is actually a 'shopped F-22 or something?

No, just that the gun camera footage the chinese posted to brag about the aircrafts dogfight abilities was pirated from Top Gun or western military sources.

The J-20 isn't a dogfighter by any means, it is more like a medium range bomber, akin to the F/B-44 proposal, which would have been an F-22 with a stretched fuselage, no tail fins, and a large crank delta wing planform, which would have doubled the range and the payload capacity of the F-22 platform, and could be used for medium range bombing to avoid risking strategic assets like the B-2 or aging B-52's on conventional combat theaters like Afghanistan etc.

The point of the J-20 is to be able to make surprise strikes on Taiwan's missile sites and air bases, as well as the US bases at Kadena, and Guam, to prevent any logistical resupply of Taiwans or South Koreas military.

The stealth characteristics of the tail booms and the axial nozzles are entirely irrelevant because they are in the back of the plane. Nobody that they are attacking with the plane will be able to paint the back end of the plane until AFTER they are attacked, at which point their radars are likely out of commission as the first targets.

93143 · Post by **93143** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:45 am

IntLibber wrote:
93143 wrote:What sense does that make? I don't see any necessary connection between a PR goof like that and the threat posed by the J-20. Is the author of the article suggesting the J-20 is actually a 'shopped F-22 or something?
No, just that the gun camera footage the chinese posted to brag about the aircrafts dogfight abilities was pirated from Top Gun or western military sources.

Sounds to me like the plane they were bragging about was the J-10. Anyway, the tone of the quote gave me the strong impression that the author thought this meant something regarding the J-20, namely that it couldn't be as much of a threat as we thought. Bad logic if I'm not reading it wrong...

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:00 am

IntLibber wrote:The J-20 isn't a dogfighter by any means, it is more like a medium range bomber

I agree that J-20 sacrifices some maneuverability due to its size, but the abundant, all-moving control surfaces and huge actuator bulges (= high control surface rates/loads) imply that it is no slouch in a dogfight. Add thrust vectoring (2D or 3D) and well-designed/integrated FCS and it will be a problem.

Like I said earlier, we (US) need to invite PLAAF over for Red Flag, once they go operational. We could invite India again at the same time, so they couldn't refuse. Maybe play some subliminal audio to the PLAAF pilots while they sleep to make them really push their birds to the limit during the games.

AcesHigh · Post by **AcesHigh** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:27 pm

93143 wrote:What sense does that make? I don't see any necessary connection between a PR goof like that and the threat posed by the J-20. Is the author of the article suggesting the J-20 is actually a 'shopped F-22 or something?

no, I am suggesting that maybe the J20 is much farther from development completion than previously thought.

93143 · Post by **93143** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:30 pm

AcesHigh wrote:no, I am suggesting that maybe the J20 is much farther from development completion than previously thought.

I'm afraid that's a non sequitur. Some propagandist pulling a dumb move doesn't necessarily imply anything about progress on an existing fighter/bomber development program.

It exists. It flies. Those facts alone are more than we expected. No one is contending that Guam needs to be put on alert for a possible J-20 raid in the next two weeks.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm

As I have been saying, this is the future:

http://gizmodo.com/5753766/x+47b-unmann ... est-flight

Just like when stealth was introduced, first you got the scouts, then the bombers, soon it will be air superiority fighters. Take my word on it. Nobody will want an F22 anymore then.

rjaypeters · Post by **rjaypeters** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:52 am

Skipjack,
I believe you have been making the point the Chinese J-20, which just had its first flight, is years away from deployment. Is not the X-47B which just had its first flight even farther away from deployment because of the new technologies and operations which must be mastered?

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:01 am

I think they are about the same time away from deployment. I also think that with the greater experience that the US has in this field, the X-47B stands a chance at getting deployed first.
Either way, X-47B is the future. J-20 is the past, so are the F22 and the F35.

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:35 am

Pardon me for butting in, but what does a demonstrator ground attack drone like X-47B have to do with real-world air superiority?

X-47B first flight update

The second aircraft, AV2, has meanwhile completed its design limit load tests up to 130% with “no test anomalies” says Pamiljans. The test indicates the airframe is able to withstand the 2.4g loads it may see during air-to-air refueling maneuvers.

Lockheed Martin Recognized For Excellence In F-22 Raptor Sustainment

The F-22 is the only aircraft that blends supercruise speed, super-agility, stealth and sensor fusion into a single air dominance platform.

F-22 specs

Maximum speed:
At altitude: Mach 2.25 (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h)
Supercruise: Mach 1.82 (1,220 mph, 1,963 km/h)
Range: >1,600 nmi (1,840 mi, 2,960 km) with 2 external fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,812 m)
Thrust/weight: 1.08 (1.26 with loaded weight & 50% fuel)
Maximum design g-load: -3.0/+9.0 g
Air to air loadout:
6× AIM-120 AMRAAM
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder

X-47B specs

Maximum speed: "high subsonic"
Cruise speed: 0.45 mach
Range: 2,100+ NM (3,889+ km)
Service ceiling: 40,000 ft (12,190 m)
Armament
2 × GBU-31 JDAM (905 kg each)(2000 lb)

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:33 am

Dont get me wrong. the X47B is not going to fully replace the F22, but it will pave the way to UAVs that ultimately will replace the F22 and other fighter planes. The path to this is already there, I am 100% sure that we will see more in that direction, in the coming years.

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:12 am

Skipjack wrote:...it will pave the way to UAVs that ultimately will replace the F22 and other fighter planes. The path to this is already there, I am 100% sure that we will see more in that direction, in the coming years.

I was writing about air superiority in this century (at least the first half).

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:12 am

was writing about air superiority in this century (at least the first half).

You think that it will take THAT long?
I dont think so.

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:45 am

Skipjack wrote:
was writing about air superiority in this century (at least the first half).
You think that it will take THAT long?
I dont think so.

Japan Keeps Pilot In Sixth-Gen Concept

Japanese technologists are committed to including a pilot in their proposed i3 sixth-generation fighter, regarding the need for onboard decision-making as indispensable in a combat aircraft for at least the next three decades.

Among the range of technologies intended for pre-development for the prospective fighter, artificial intelligence has been left out.

But what do the Japanese know about robotics and artificial intelligence, eh? If only they had the latest Austrian advances...

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:02 pm

Well, the US, who also do a lot about AI and robotics AND UAVs have decided that the next fighter will have a manned and an unmanned version.
This is, from what I understand already a set decision.
The japanese do not value the lives of their pilots as highly as the US does (as we learned in WW2).
Austria is actually doing quite important development and research into AI and robotics. Several world leading robotics companies are located in Austria. But of course you dont know that.

Luzr · Post by **Luzr** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:48 pm

Skipjack wrote: The japanese do not value the lives of their pilots as highly as the US does (as we learned in WW2).

Actually, while I do agree that these manned fighters are indeed the thing of past, I would extend here: It is not lives of pilots that will make them inferior in dogfight, but rather inability of humans to withstand high-G.

BTW, reminds me my favorite hobby of RC gliders, where the state-of-the-art dynamic soaring gliders are capable of handling 70G and more, flying tight circles at more than 700km/h. Obviously, such a feat would be impossible for any piloted aircraft...